Esoterica's avatar

Esoterica

little boi blue: On African-American Vernacular English (Ebonics).

deliciouskaek:

anonthoughtsfromanon:

bookishboi:

White people are steady fucking up today. I found this gem earlier. Some of the language may be confusing so I’ve provided the necessary translations.

anonthoughtsfromanon:

I don’t understand why anyone uses it; it gives the impression of immaturity and, frankly, stupidity.

Translation:…

You completely misunderstood what I said and jumped to screaming racism. 

Let me go point by point:

 ”I don’t understand why anyone uses it; it gives the impression of immaturity and, frankly, stupidity.

Translation: I think Black people are stupid.”
Not at all. If anything, the opposite is true. There is no difference between blacks and whites. I expect everyone to use the same standard English that is expected in a professional environment. Being Black means nothing when it comes to presenting yourself professionally.

“What particularly bugs me is how Blacks often speak differently to Caucasians than they do among themselves. I mean, if Blacks want to be treated equally, as they should, why would you willingly draw a line between yourself and others? If anyone thinks that they way they speak is so far beneath the way I do that it necessitates a conscious change, why speak that way at all? I speak to everyone I meet the same way — no one is different, no one is above or below me.

Translation: Why can’t black people be more like white people? They’re making me racist.”
You can still identify perfectly Black and speak standard English. Case and point:  President Barrack Obama. No one would take him seriously if he delivered a State of the Union address utilizing AAVE and I haven’t heard any one say he is too White.

“If anything, the widespread use of Ebonics perpetuates racism and stereotypes. It draws a line between Blacks and everyone else. “

“Translation: Black people make me feel insecure. They’re making me racist. “

I’m insecure and racist because I expect every one to reach the professional standard? That doesn’t even make sense. 

 I could never imagine going into a job interview and speaking like that; I can’t imagine what the interviewer must think constantly hearing “was” used when standard English would use “were.” It would only hurt.

Translation: I think black people are stupid. I’m racist.”
No. Black people are not stupid and are perfectly capable of using the standard English that is expected of every one in a professional environment. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_KKLkmIrDk

hiya seanie-poo!

welp. you did it again. here, let me help you yank that foot out of your mouth.

PLENTY of folks call Barack Obama too white. lots of folks are quite to claim his white mama whenever he does something right, and remind us of his father when they feel like he’s wrong. hear it all the time. so there goes that argument. next.

the proble with no one taking him seriously if he used AAVE isn’t that it’s because AAVE doesn’t belong anywhere, it’s that the use of another language wouldn’t go over well with — you guessed it — white folks. who does the most complaining when ATMs update with new languages, or when they have to “press 1 for English”? i’ll let you think about that. see, there is still no official language here in the United States. let me repeat that.

there is still no official language here in the united states

Standardized english is considered more acceptable because a long time ago a bunch of old white guys got together and spoke and wrote shit down in English, practically obliterated many of the languages that were already spoken here, and beat the languages out of the people who came/were brought here, and now a new bunch of old white guys don’t want to give it up.

so. i’ll leave you with that one, too.

you keep bringing up this “professional environment” and “professional standard”

let’s think about who represents corporate america in most folks’ minds, and why. seriously, think about that. and i can’t help but remember that in your initial post, seanie-poo, you also mentioned the code-switching that Black Americans do.

why do you care how we speak amongst ourselves? unless that makes you uncomfortable in some way. unless it’s hard for you to understand. 

since when is being bilingual a bad thing? when we speak standardized English to you, we’re trying to help you out, bro. we know you don’t get it, and we know you probably never will. that’s okay, most folks only learned one language in school well enough to speak it fluently. 

but here is what you said that left the very clear and obvious impression that you have nothing but disdain for Black folks who speak AAVE:

— If anyone thinks that they way they speak is so far beneath the way I do that it necessitates a conscious change, why speak that way at all?

sweetie, we don’t think it’s beneath standard English at all, any more than speaking Mandarin, or speaking Spanish is beneath speaking English. it’s just that we know you don’t understand. we’re trying to be nice, okay? or else we don’t feel comfortable enough with you to speak our own language around you. and hell, we need our jobs, so for most of us, we do what we need to in order to keep them.

you also said:

— it gives the impression of immaturity and, frankly, stupidity.

tell me, if you don’t think Black folks (and hey, it’s AAVE, so pretty much Black folks, okay?) are stupid, why would you think that the language/dialect gives the impression of stupidity? what kind of disconnect is happening here?

— I could never imagine going into a job interview and speaking like that


i shouldn’t have to explain this one, but i will. the level of condescension here is over 9-fucking-thousand, okay? “speaking like that” — the fuck are you saying? i mean, what you basically said, and please don’t try to rephrase in some way that makes you look less like an asshole, because it will only make you look like more of an asshole, was:

there’s no way i could speak that way and align myself with those stupid and foolish people. it’s unthinkable! i don’t know why they do it. obviously they don’t have to be or sound so stupid, so why? i don’t understand them when they talk to each other, even though i’m not part of the conversation. gosh, why can’t they be more white?

i know, i know, those weren’t your written words, but that was the clear sentiment that you left here, seanie-poo. i’ma need you to think a bit more critically before you respond again.

(via deliciouskaek)

theblackamericanprincess

Sign language that African Americans use is different from that of whites

theinebriatedfangirl:

theblackamericanprincess:

Sign language that African Americans use is different from that of whites

By Published: September 17

Carolyn McCaskill remembers exactly when she discovered that she couldn’t understand white people. It was 1968, she was 15 years old, and she and nine other deaf black students had just enrolled in an integrated school for the deaf in Talledega, Ala.

When the teacher got up to address the class, McCaskill was lost.

“I was dumbfounded,” McCaskill recalls through an interpreter. “I was like, ‘What in the world is going on?’ ”

The teacher’s quicksilver hand movements looked little like the sign language McCaskill had grown up using at home with her two deaf siblings and had practiced at the Alabama School for the Negro Deaf and Blind, just a few miles away. It wasn’t a simple matter of people at the new school using unfamiliar vocabularly; they made hand movements for everyday words that looked foreign to McCaskill and her fellow black students.

So, McCaskill says, “I put my signs aside.” She learned entirely new signs for such common nouns as “shoe” and “school.” She began to communicate words such as “why” and “don’t know” with one hand instead of two as she and her black friends had always done. She copied the white students who lowered their hands to make the signs for “what for” and “know” closer to their chins than to their foreheads. And she imitated the way white students mouthed words at the same time as they made manual signs for them.

Whenever she went home, McCaskill carefully switched back to her old way of communicating.

What intrigues McCaskill and other experts in deaf culture today is the degree to which distinct signing systems — one for whites and another for blacks — evolved and continue to coexist, even at Gallaudet University, where black and white students study and socialize together and where McCaskill is now a professor of deaf studies.

Five years ago, with grants from the National Science Foundation and the Spencer Foundation, McCaskill and three fellow researchers began to investigate the distinctive structure and grammar of Black American Sign Language, or Black ASL, in much the way that linguists have studied spoken African American English (known by linguists as AAE or, more popularly, as Ebonics). Their study, which assembled and analyzed data from filmed conversations and interviews with 96 subjects in six states, is the first formal attempt to describe Black ASL and resulted in the publication last year of “The Hidden Treasure of Black ASL.” What the researchers have found is a rich signing system that reflects both a history of segregation and the ongoing influence of spoken black English.

The book and its accompanying DVD emphasize that Black ASL is not just a slang form of signing. Instead, think of the two signing systems as comparable to American and British English: similar but with differences that follow regular patterns and a lot of variation in individual usage. In fact, says Ceil Lucas, one of McCaskill’s co-authors and a professor of linguistics at Gallaudet, Black ASL could be considered the purer of the two forms, closer in some ways to the system that Thomas Hopkins Gallaudet promulgated when he founded the first U.S. school for the deaf — known at the time as the American Asylum for Deaf Mutes — in Hartford, Conn., in 1817.

Mercedes Hunter, a hearing African American student in the department of interpretation at Gallaudet, describes the signing she and her fellow students use as a form of self-expression. “We include our culture in our signing,” says Hunter, who was a reseach assistant for the project, “our own unique flavor.”

“We make our signs bigger, with more body language” she adds, alluding to what the researchers refer to as Black ASL’s larger “signing space.”

No universal language

When she tries to explain how Black ASL fits into the world of deaf communication, Lucas sets out by dispelling a common misconception about signing.

Many people think sign language is a single, universal language, which would mean that deaf people anywhere in the world could communicate freely with one another.

Another widely held but erroneous belief is that sign languages are direct visual translations of spoken languages, which would mean that American signers could communicate fairly freely with British or Australian ones but would have a hard time understanding an Argentinian or Armenian’s signs.

Neither is true, explains J. Archer Miller, a Baltimore-based lawyer who specializes in disability rights and has many deaf clients. There are numerous signing systems, and American Sign Language is based on the French system that Gallaudet and his teacher, Laurent Clerc, imported to America in the early 19th century.

“I find it easier to understand a French signer” than a British or Australian one, Miller says, “because of the shared history of the American and French systems.”

In fact, experts say, ASL is about 60 percent the same as French, and unintelligible to users of British sign language.

Within signing systems, just as within spoken languages, there are cultural and regional variants, and Miller explains that he can sometimes be stumped by a user’s idiosyncracies. He remembers in Philadelphia coming across an unfamiliar sign for “hospital” (usually depicted by making a cross on the shoulder, but in this case with a sign in front of the signer’s forehead).

What’s more, Miller says, signing changes over time: The sign for “telephone,” for example, is commonly made by spreading your thumb and pinkie and holding them up to your ear and mouth. An older sign was to put one fist to your ear and the other in front of your mouth to look like an old-fashioned candlestick phone.

So it’s hardly surprising, Miller says, that Americans’ segregated pasts led to the development of different signing traditions — and that contemporary cultural differences continue to influence the signing that black and white Americans use.

Some differences result from a familiar history of privation in black education. Schools for black deaf children — the first of them opened some 50 years after the Hartford school was founded, and most resisted integration until well after the Brown v. Board of Education decision of 1954— tended to have fewer resources. Students were encouraged to focus on vocational careers — repairing shoes or working in laundries — rather than pursuing academic subjects, Lucas says, and some teachers had poor signing skills.

But a late-19th-century development in the theory of how to teach deaf children led, ironically, to black students’ having a more consistent education in signing. The so-called oralism movement, based on the now controversial notion that spoken language is inherently superior to sign language, placed emphasis on teaching deaf children how to lip-read and speak.

Driven by the slogan “the gesture kills the word,” the oralism theory was put into practice in the United States predominantly in white schools. Black students, Lucas says, were left to manage with their purely manual form of communication.

Ultimately rejected by people who felt it prevented deaf people from developing their “natural,” manual language, oralism fell out of favor in the 1970s and ’80s, but white signers continued to mouth words. That was one of the key differences McCaskill noted when she joined the integrated Alabama School for the Deaf. And the distinction is still evident today, Lucas says, among older signers.

The challenges of interpretation

Regional and cultural differences in signing are a constant challenge for interpreters, according to Candas Barnes, a professional interpreter based at Gallaudet, who describes the role as a “continual decision-making process.”

Sometimes a black public figure might shift into African American English and back, as Oprah sometimes does, to make a rhetorical point. The interpreter, Barnes says, may or may not switch into Black ASL, “depending on who the audience is.” A primarily white audience may not understand Black ASL, she points out.

And there’s no guarantee that every black member of an audience would understand, Barnes says. But she says interpreters for the Congressional Black Caucus’s annual legislative conference “are more inclined to follow along” because the audience would most likely be African American.

Miller, the disability rights lawyer, sometimes finds it a challenge “to find the appropriate interpreter for a particular person.” Interpreters, he says, “need to be able to communicate certain expressions and make sure they don’t mistake one sign for another and inadvertently completely change the meaning of the deaf person’s statement.”

The kinds of confusion that can come up, says Lucas, include the sign for “bad,” which can mean “really good” in Black ASL — an example of a usage that migrated from spoken black English. Similarly, in Black ASL, the sign for “word” can mean “That’s the truth!” — though Lucas says white signers wouldn’t use it in that way.

And Mary Henry Lightfoot, a former board member of the National Alliance of Black Interpreters who works at Gallaudet, says that features associated with Black ASL, such as its larger signing space and “facial grammar,” sometimes cause interpreters to misunderstand the message. “If you’re not used to that as part of the language, you can misinterpret,” she says.

“I’ve heard African American signers say, ‘Don’t make assumptions about what I’m saying based on what I look like.’ ”

‘Signing like the white students’

There’s little evidence of Black ASL in the Gallaudet University classroom when McCaskill leads a diverse group of about 20 students in a discussion of “The Dynamics of Oppression,” a course that examines oppression across different cultures and explores parallels in the deaf community. In the classroom, just as in a professional setting, Lucas says, students and teachers generally employ a formal, academic norm, much as would be the case with spoken English.

But as students break into smaller discussion groups, their signing becomes more colloquial. They refer to regional differences in signing and occasionally stop to discuss a sign that is unfamiliar to one of them.

And when a smaller group of black students meets to describe and demonstrate the distinctive flavor of Black ASL, they refer emotionally to their attachment to their own brand of signing and how it reflects their identities as African American members of the deaf community.

“It shows our personality,” says Dominique Flagg, through an interpreter.

“Our signing is louder, more expressive,” explains Teraca Florence, a former president of the Black Deaf Student Union at the university, where 8 percent of the student body is African American. “It’s almost poetic.”

Proud as they are of its distinctive rhythm and style, Flagg and the other students say they worry about assumptions others make about their signing. “People sometimes think I am mad or have an attitude when I am just chatting with my friends, professors and other people,” Flagg says.

Others express concern that Black ASL is sometimes seen as less correct or even stereotyped as street language, echoing a sentiment expressed by some African American signers interviewed for the book who describe the ASL used by white people as “cleaner” and “superior.”

It’s a familiar feeling for McCaskill, who remembers how she had to learn to fit in with the white kids at her integrated school all those years ago.

“I would pick up their signs,” McCaskill says.

And when she went home, she remembers, “friends and family would say, ‘Wait a minute, you’re signing like the white students. You think you’re smart. You think you’re better than us.’ ”

© The Washington Post Company

Goddamn, this is interesting. 

(via inlovewiththepractice)

ethiopienne

jaxis-motherfuckin-black:

shatteredintentions:

mr-sali:

ethiopienne:

This is the most heartbreakingly true thing I’ve seen in a while. Internalized racism is a bitch.

I can swear I saw this before, but with a few girls talking in a class setting. 

I’ve definitely gone through almost everything in this video. It really is heartbreaking. Having to grow out of hating yourself because of society’s perception you.

This is me going on a ramble. If I don’t make sense, I’m sorry, just try to work with me and follow along, I know this isn’t the best thought out opinion.

“Racism” in today’s America doesn’t exist. Yes, there are still some people who are bigots and shouldn’t be allowed to breed, but as a majority, people see blacks as people. There’s no colour separation anymore. There’s no “society’s perception” of blacks. The only time the “racist” card is pulled are when blacks pull it on themselves in whatever situation. “What?! You don’t like me because I’m black?!” No. We’re not racist. You’re making yourself racist. Everyone is over the whole slave past, you’re the ones that keep bringing it up. Yes, I understand it’s hard to be happy with yourself and feel different all the time, but there are white kids, and Asian kids, and Mexican and Indian kids who all feel the same as you for whatever their reasons.

The only black racism are by blacks.

The world is a melting pot of ethnicity’s. People might be attracted to some skin colour preferences, but that doesn’t make anyone racist.If women just stood up and became that “Proud black woman that don’t take no shit from no one” type of person, then don’t you think the black racism wouldn’t exist anymore? If you stop caring and making things an issue, things will cease to be an issue.

This is my opinion and only an opinion.

Why not just admit you’re begging for attention by saying ignorant bullshit? I know bigots like you love to ignore everything after slavery like Jim Crow laws & the current news stories about black people who are being oppressed (fun fact, the darker you are the more likely you are to have trouble finding employment, the darker you are the more likely you are to be stopped by the police for existing while brown & you’re more likely to be killed for your skin color!), so that you can pretend reality doesn’t matter. Too bad, so sad it absolutely does, now kindly shut the fuck up.

irresistible-revolution

Ok my people. When we’re protesting the whitewashing of Asian stories, we really REALLY need to stop saying ‘This would never happen to Black/African characters!’

irresistible-revolution:

Like seriously. I’ve seen this argument being used by otherwise respectable and eloquent activists, both in the case of ‘Avatar: the Last Airbender’ and the recent controversy over La Jolla’ playhouse’s ‘The Nightingale’. And each time it makes me cringe.

Hell, even George Takei, whom I have mad respect for, said that African-Americans are established in Hollywood in a way that Asian-Americans are not, and that the white Hollywood would never whitewash the former group anymore etc.

BULLSHIT.

This is not how white supremacy works. First off, if white people are so reluctant to whitewash Black folks, why the fuck are we still getting lily white white women playing Cleopatra? Why the fuck is nearly every mainstream depiction of ancient Egypt whiter than white bread?

Here’s the thing. Whiteness works insidiously. Where it can, it absorbs and subsumes. Where it cannot, it destroys and erases.

So while white folks are busy fetishizing ‘Asian’ culture and inserting themselves into our histories/ cultures/ mythologies because omg its so pretty and exotic, guess what they’re doing to Black/African histories and mythologies? Inserting themselves where they can (hello ‘The Help’, ‘Blood Diamond’) and erasing/ destroying when they can’t. This is why it took George Lucas decades to get ‘Red Tails’ off the ground. This is why no one wanted to fund the Malcom X movie, or Danny Glover’s biopic on Toussaint Louverture and the Haitian revolution.

Responding to yellowface/ Asian whitewashing with ‘this wouldn’t happen to Black people!’ is flat out ignorant, unhelpful and divisive. 

There are plenty of good reasons to oppose the whitewashing of Asian stories. Reasons that can allow us to cultivate solidarity with Black/African communities whose stories are also struggling for visibility.

drowndeepinblah

eclecticspectrum:

karnythia:

eclecticspectrum:

karnythia:

eclecticspectrum:

vagabondaesthetics:

eclecticspectrum:

karnythia reblogged your post: Baratunde just annoyed me…

So we’re not going to talk about the history of Pan Africanism & the ties between the Civil Rights Movement, Black Pride…

 And?

No one is denying any of this. But that does not mean that everything is peaches and cream because of it. It’s as if the present and the lived experiences of another generation aren’t being taken into account.

Black Pride, The Civil Rights movement, etc hasn’t kept my own family members from making disparaging comments about the entire diaspora and their history. It didn’t keep my peers from shunning my Ghanaian name, hairstyles, and language.

Clearly there is more that needs to be discusses but feel free to keep mentioning this as if it negates everything that has happened afterwards.

Why won’t you stop discussing your identity? :( You’re hurting my feelings.

Very cute my dear :D

Do people think that listing all these things is supposed to keep me from talking about my own life and experiences?

What I don’t understand is how someone who has called me disgusting amongst other things continues to essentially haress me. If I’m so terrible STOP ENGAGING WITH ME.

She has her own blog to run and it’s a well known one at that, yet lo and behold she seems to pop up and derail. It’s pathetic.

I swear I’m gonna have to start reporting people because this is absolutely ridiculous.

Who said anything about you not talking about your life & experiences? Since you called my name you might want to actually read my words. As for claims of harassment? I’m not flooding your inbox with a damned thing & like a lot of people I have come out in the past in defense of black women like you even if I disagree with them. Go ahead & report me for responding to things that get reblogged onto my dash, be sure to mention posts where you call my name & address them to me. Let me know how that works out for you. I’m not popping up to do anything but point out facts. You know those things you like to ignore when you go off on these tirades against the same people who you claim to admire as long as we stay silent & don’t expect respect from people who want it from us.

Oh look it’s the facts police. You bring up these facts as if I’m not aware of them. You bring up these facts as if they soothe tensions, as if they are supposed to keep me from voicing my concerns on my own blog. 

You interject these facts not to make things nuanced but create excuses for negative manifestations of folks trying to reconnect with Africa.

No one is forcing you to reblog anything that comes onto your dash. You do that on your own. You make a choice to derail. 

I’ve said everything that I need to say. If you want to keep reblogging and spreading more falsehoods carry on.

No, I bring up these facts when you come at a man about his name like he doesn’t have a right to his feelings about the way people treat him. I bring up these facts when you ignore them to justify your attitudes instead of thinking about them & what the choices of earlier generations mean to this generation. I am not making excuses for a damned thing, but I’m also not going to accept this “We said go away, so go away” routine when it ignores a history of entreaties to return as well as current ongoing government supported efforts by various countries in Africa to get Black Americans to reconnect & bring their money & skills back to those places. It’s not derailing to point out reality. But you keep telling yourself we’re not speaking the truth because you don’t like hearing that things are much more complicated than your disdain for us.

I didn’t say that I he didn’t have a right t his feelings. Of course he does. But in an attempt to connect to people, it wouldn’t hurt him to be cognizant of why people respond to him the way in which they do.

I am a fan of his writing. He wrote something and I have right to respond to it. I stated that I did not like the way in which he framed the Nigerian reaction. He has a powerful voice that can influence people. I believed that he diminished the voices of people who have issues, whatever those issues may be with his name.

When he asked for reasons I responded to the best of my ability.

You are pointing out a reality but how large is that reality for everyone? What is that reality like for the people living in my father’s village right now. What is that reality like for the young Africans who are teased in their classrooms? What is that reality like for the Black American children who still believe that Africa is a monolith. How many of them are thinking -  well there was the Civil Rights Movement, Pan-Africanism and W.E.B.

You are mentioning things that are real but unfortunately they do not touch the lives of enough people. If they did this conversation would not be necessary. I am telling you, as a person who has lived in the United States for her entire life, who grew up with a name, history, culture, that was teased, butchered, and ridiculed that in spite of these things these issues are prevalent. My elder brothers deal with it. My relatives deal with it. I dealt with it and continue to deal with it. That is what you are missing.

I am not ignoring history, context, and nuance. I am telling you that with all of those things the problems are still very real.

And if I did not grow up in a home that taught me to not just be proud of where I come from but to question everything, I would be like my father’s generation. I wouldn’t take the time to learn about American history - the full history. I wouldn’t challenge my relatives when they make negative, ignorant, hateful comments about the diaspora. I would join in and nod my head.

If I didn’t have that knowledge, I would not have instantly forgiven the kids who got a kick out of deliberately mispronouncing my name. I’d be hating them instead of laying the blame at the feet of white hegemony.

I have consistently said that I have heard you. I understand you. I see what you are bringing to the table.

I am telling you that it is not enough. Now maybe for you it is. I say maybe because I cannot speak for you. But for me, the wonderful things that past visionaries did, and even some of the awesome things that are happening now, are not enough to offset the present manifestations of all around ickyness.

I didn’t say it was enough. I am merely pointing out that this is a process & a hard one at that. I teach a lot of this history to my kids & their friends. But getting angry with people for fucking up (on either side) without acknowledging that they are individuals & not the institution bothers me. I got plenty of “You’re American, you must be loose” that I know came from a person who got that message & didn’t know better until I aired them out about who I am & what I will not tolerate. No one said the problems are real. What we are saying (and that you don’t seem to be hearing) is that when people come out of their face with hurtful things & seemingly feel no remorse for those things in these conversations? That just adds to the problems & creates the impression that these conversations are attacks. You have a right to feel how you feel, just as Baratunde has a right to talk about his personal life & his name & not have it be about anything in his head but how these things have impacted him. Does that mean that there are unintended consequences? Yep. That’s true of everyone with skin in this game.

(via drowndeepinblah)

drowndeepinblah

to karnythia

blackridinnhood:

karnythia:

eclecticspectrum:

vagabondaesthetics:

eclecticspectrum:

karnythia reblogged your post: Baratunde just annoyed me…

So we’re not going to talk about the history of Pan Africanism & the ties between the Civil Rights Movement, Black Pride…

 And?

No one is denying any of this. But that does not mean that everything is peaches and cream because of it. It’s as if the present and the lived experiences of another generation aren’t being taken into account.

Black Pride, The Civil Rights movement, etc hasn’t kept my own family members from making disparaging comments about the entire diaspora and their history. It didn’t keep my peers from shunning my Ghanaian name, hairstyles, and language.

Clearly there is more that needs to be discusses but feel free to keep mentioning this as if it negates everything that has happened afterwards.

Why won’t you stop discussing your identity? :( You’re hurting my feelings.

Very cute my dear :D

Do people think that listing all these things is supposed to keep me from talking about my own life and experiences?

What I don’t understand is how someone who has called me disgusting amongst other things continues to essentially haress me. If I’m so terrible STOP ENGAGING WITH ME.

She has her own blog to run and it’s a well known one at that, yet lo and behold she seems to pop up and derail. It’s pathetic.

I swear I’m gonna have to start reporting people because this is absolutely ridiculous.

Who said anything about you not talking about your life & experiences? Since you called my name you might want to actually read my words. As for claims of harassment? I’m not flooding your inbox with a damned thing & like a lot of people I have come out in the past in defense of black women like you even if I disagree with them. Go ahead & report me for responding to things that get reblogged onto my dash, be sure to mention posts where you call my name & address them to me. Let me know how that works out for you. I’m not popping up to do anything but point out facts. You know those things you like to ignore when you go off on these tirades against the same people who you claim to admire as long as we stay silent & don’t expect respect from people who want it from us.

I just wanted to reblog this because I got the same “harassment” bull too. Because apparently disagreeing with you and responding when you get reblogged by her is harassment. -_-

I’m saying, you address posts to me & tag them with my name. But I’m harassing you? Nah b. Feel free to take your own advice about blocking or whatever, but don’t try to gaslight me. This broad claims to want dialog, but what I see is a desire for punching bags.

(via blackridinnhood-deactivated2012)

drowndeepinblah

to karnythia

eclecticspectrum:

karnythia reblogged your post: Baratunde just annoyed me…

So we’re not going to talk about the history of Pan Africanism & the ties between the Civil Rights Movement, Black Pride…

 And?

No one is denying any of this. But that does not mean that everything is peaches and cream because of it. It’s as if the present and the lived experiences of another generation aren’t being taken into account.

Black Pride, The Civil Rights movement, etc hasn’t kept my own family members from making disparaging comments about the entire diaspora and their history. It didn’t keep my peers from shunning my Ghanaian name, hairstyles, and language.

Clearly there is more that needs to be discusses but feel free to keep mentioning this as if it negates everything that has happened afterwards.

I’m mentioning facts because the historical context affects the social context. You know that, please stop pretending you don’t know exactly what I’m talking about when I bring up what has come before especially in a discussion of Baratunde’s name & why his parents gave it to him. You’re not going to erase over a hundred years of context & have a real discussion of any of the current issues. It cannot be done, just like these conversations have to include a discussion of imported & exported images as well as access (or lack thereof) to education & what that means for this generations efforts. You seem to think these things are brought up to spite you, but that’s not remotely true. I have been having these conversations for years & the past affects the present affects the future is a truism of any effort to reconcile things across the diaspora.

drowndeepinblah

to karnythia

eclecticspectrum:

vagabondaesthetics:

eclecticspectrum:

karnythia reblogged your post: Baratunde just annoyed me…

So we’re not going to talk about the history of Pan Africanism & the ties between the Civil Rights Movement, Black Pride…

 And?

No one is denying any of this. But that does not mean that everything is peaches and cream because of it. It’s as if the present and the lived experiences of another generation aren’t being taken into account.

Black Pride, The Civil Rights movement, etc hasn’t kept my own family members from making disparaging comments about the entire diaspora and their history. It didn’t keep my peers from shunning my Ghanaian name, hairstyles, and language.

Clearly there is more that needs to be discusses but feel free to keep mentioning this as if it negates everything that has happened afterwards.

Why won’t you stop discussing your identity? :( You’re hurting my feelings.

Very cute my dear :D

Do people think that listing all these things is supposed to keep me from talking about my own life and experiences?

What I don’t understand is how someone who has called me disgusting amongst other things continues to essentially haress me. If I’m so terrible STOP ENGAGING WITH ME.

She has her own blog to run and it’s a well known one at that, yet lo and behold she seems to pop up and derail. It’s pathetic.

I swear I’m gonna have to start reporting people because this is absolutely ridiculous.

Who said anything about you not talking about your life & experiences? Since you called my name you might want to actually read my words. As for claims of harassment? I’m not flooding your inbox with a damned thing & like a lot of people I have come out in the past in defense of black women like you even if I disagree with them. Go ahead & report me for responding to things that get reblogged onto my dash, be sure to mention posts where you call my name & address them to me. Let me know how that works out for you. I’m not popping up to do anything but point out facts. You know those things you like to ignore when you go off on these tirades against the same people who you claim to admire as long as we stay silent & don’t expect respect from people who want it from us.

(via drowndeepinblah)

drowndeepinblah

to so-treu

eclecticspectrum:

karnythia:

so-treu:

bouvier:

so-treu:

bouvier:

eclecticspectrum:

so-treu reblogged your post: Baratunde just annoyed me…

are we still honestly trying to dialogue with this bitch? she hates black americans and will find any reason to shit on…

 You’re still at it huh?

Call me a bitch. Say whatever you wish. It’s getting pathetic and redundant at this point.

Stop being concerned with who is and is not engaging with me. No one is forcing you to be a part of the discussion. If you’re so bothered by me just block me. It’s simple.

I’ve agreed with electricspectrum and arulpragasams a lot, and yet you’re still following me, so-treu. So that makes me a bitch too, and as electricspectrum and I are both bitches, isn’t it hypocritical to still be following me?

well, i follow you because i like you and agree with you on a lot of other things, and i rarely see you reblog electricspectrum. but if that’s how you feel, deuces.

It just feels a bit strange because although I don’t say it in the same way she does, I have similar views on black diaspora topics. I don’t know, I’m not saying to stop or anything, it’s just that I feel like I’ve said some of the same stuff she’s said, but it’s never bothered you in the same way electricspectrum bothers you?

no, because you’ve never said “massa taught you well, didn’t he?” why are we acting like that wasn’t a violent, hateful thing to say, especially given the convo that was happening when she said that??

look, i dont entirely disagree with her either, on all counts. if you remember i initially engaged with her and you and queerhairyvag about all of this. but at a certain point she stops listening, starts projecting, and starts lashing out. and it becomes clear that this is personal for her, as in she personally his issues with african americans. and im sorry some of us are dipshits but if y’all wont stand for us saying “all africans are like this” why should we stand for y’all saying “all black americans are appropriating assholes who dont respect africans and dont know african culture?” which is basically what she’s saying, over and over. no engagement with history, historical context, nothing.

I’m saying a lot of us were actually trying to to have conversations before that shit & the “You’re spitting on your ancestors” routine. I’d still like to actually discuss the issues, but I’m not about to let this yotch shit on people & their families & claim that her words are harmless. Nope. Not going for it.

You can cling onto the “routine” for as long as you see fit. 

Having negative feelings about culture is not unique to one group of POC. 

If someone told me that I spit on my ancestors by because I said that I had no culture I wouldn’t even bother to get upset. There’s history and context - racist oppressive things that have happened to make POC the world over do these things. What ever the reasons are the phlegm is still on the grave.

No one here is spitting on anyone’s history. I continue to try to have these conversations but you are interested in doing nothing but diminishing and derailing. I’m trying to have a conversation with some great people now but here you come being condescending and mention the Civil Rights Movement and Pan Africanism as that softens everything. 

I brought up my frustrations with cultural appropriation months ago. And you derailed then and made the Black American experience the center of the conversation.

I’m not here for it.

And the fact that you refuse to see that what you’re saying is offensive is part of the problem. I didn’t derail a damned thing, I tried to have a nuanced conversation about the reality of cultural appropriation amongst the peoples of the diaspora. You decided that facts & history & context don’t mean a thing unless someone is telling you that your anti Black American rhetoric is okay & acceptable. I’m not about to do that & I’m not going to let your bullshit cross my dash without pointing out the problems with your arguments. Keep telling yourself that everyone should think & feel the way you do. That’s the bigots way out & we all know it.

(via drowndeepinblah)

unorganized thoughts on the term “afro-iranian”

deluxvivens:

cuttlefishbones:

diskogerilla:

i’ve been seeing it on my dashboard a lot.

i’m not comfortable using this term to describe iranians of “afro-” descent and i’d like to explain why (whoweretheqajars pointed out to me that it can’t not be used in academia because of how academia works, and that’s fine. i’m talking about blog posts and discussions and how we see the world in general). these are just some thoughts. if anyone wants to engage in a discussion about it or something related (iranian- or not) please message me. that’s what i’m posting it for. i did my best to translate all the farsi i use to english so non-farsi speakers don’t get confused.

also i apologize in advance if this sounds angry or belittling to anyone who has used or does use the word. i’ve used the word too, i’m not angry (even if my writing sounds that way sometimes) and i don’t mean to criticize anyone.

i’m uncomfortable using the term afro-iranian because we don’t refer to other groups as “sino-iranian”, “indo-iranian”, “cauco-iranian”, etc. also “iranian” is a national identity that some ethnic groups choose to ignore when describing themselves. most kord people will tell you they are “kord” or “kord-e (insert kurdish nameplace here).

plus i’m not going to label someone as “afro-iranian” unless they label themselves that way. some seemingly “afro-iranian”s are farsizaban (farsi speaking) and refer to themselves as “irani” or “irooni”. i’m not going to stick the word “afro-” in front of that just because they are “african” looking. if they are irani they are irani, and maybe the rest of us have female ancestors who had non-irani hamsaye (neighbors) and are the ones who need to add a race-identifying prefix to our national identification. in which case all light-skinned iranians with nosejobs should be known as “euro-iranians”. my point being there are alternative ways of understanding and perceiving the diversity of “looks” in iran, and maybe we should pick one that is more threatening to the white cis hetero-patriarchal world order.

my guess is that people from communities like “zangiabad” or “dehzangi”, probably refer to themselves as “zangi” or “zanji”. this word btw, does not mean “coon” or the n-word even though its listed as such on some online english-language dictionaries. zangi comes from zangibar, the parsi or arab-cization of zanzibar (in east africa).CORRECTION:

BTW, the word zanzibar/zangibar is actually Persian in origin.

-whoweretheqajars

a friend who recently visited from iran told me that in iran’s academia dark-skinned people who live in the south are referred to as “adam-ha ye boomi-e jonoob” (indigenous peoples of the south) or “jonoobi” along with everyone else who lives in southern iran. peoples of the south are further divided into classifications based on the language they speak (i.e. arabi, balochi, pashto, dari, farsizaban, etc.) and the province they live in (i.e. khuzestani, hormozgani, sistani).

in farsi the word used to described “dark” skin is “siah-soukhte” (black burned) or “siah” (black) regardless of ethnicity and should not be confused with the english or american meaning of “black”. “tanned” is siah-soukhte, even if you are a white amerikkkan cracka. “brown” and “black” are both siah. again this is regardless of ethnicity so if you are african-american but really light skinned you are called “sefid” (white). if you are that crazy tan-addict from new jersey you are called “siah”. anything that is not white bread white is “siah” or “siah soukhte”. there’s also “sabzeh” (green) but it mostly refers to people with olive undertones.

the words used for the amerikkkan meanings of “black” and “white” are “sefidpoost” (whiteskin), and “siahpoost” (blackskin). these are imports from amerikkka because of the film industry. my guess is that it started with “redskin” being translated as “sorkhpoost” in the subtitles or dubbing of amerikkkan westerns (which were really popular in iran in the 1960s). up until recently people only referred to african-americans as “siahpoost” but that has started to change and they refer to black african peoples and diaspora peoples that way as well. i blame a lot of the current racism amongst iranians on amerikkkan and euro-peon film and television media that people watch (illegally) via satellite. 

people who live along the coast are called “bandari” sometimes, “bandar” meaning port, because they are a mix of all the different people who go through the persian gulf for trade or work. this is usually used in reference to the culture though, not the people themselves.

one reason the term “afro-iranian” makes no sense to me is that there has been cultural exchange between the middle east and africa for thousands of years. people have been migrating back and forth between these two landmasses this whole time but since it hasn’t caught the attention of europe, we don’t hear about it in the west*. all we hear about is the “arab slave trade” which, in combination with the myth about africa being an undeveloped, uncivilized landmass of primitive jungle people, gives the impression that all peoples of “african” descent living in the middle east are descended from slaves.

some iranians are descended from slaves kidnapped from somewhere in africa, others are descended from sailors originally from somewhere in africa, and there are also iranians whose genetics suggest that their ancestors migrated from north or east africa at some point in the past, and have since assimilated as farsizaban or some other ethnic group. “afro-” doesn’t make sense because a lot of people in iran have ancestry that originated somewhere in africa even if they don’t look “african”**. this is not privileged information but it gets ignored because of western mythologizing. if you want to know someone’s history ask them. if you want to know how they identify, then ask them. as annoying it is when people ask me “what are you?” i would rather you do that than apply a label according to what you assume i am.

in the 1930s anthropologists from the university of chicago did a study on the peoples of iran, and from measuring our facial features etc. they determined we were predominantly “negroid”s with some “mongoloid”s and some dark-skinned “atlanto-mediterranean types”. now we are considered “white” on the u.s. census? i have to wonder if some of this talk about race in iran isn’t somehow politically motivated. demonstrate that “iranian” is not “black” so that it can be white.

this worries me because i think about how other light-skinned minorities have been assimilated into whiteness, contributed to anti-black racism passive-aggresively (by not resisting the white identity assigned to them) as well as perpetrated violence onto blacks and other non-white minority groups in the name of white supremacy (like the irish in the early days of california). we should be working against whiteness with black americans because if we don’t it’ll end up hurting us in the long run.

and african-americans, by using the word afro-iranian to describe any iranian who looks “african” regardless of how they actually identify, end up claiming some of us and leaving the rest of us searching for an amerikkkan culture to identify with. you have names like us (darius, jafara, zahara, malik, etc.), you rap like us, a lot of you look like us, we’re honestly not that different and it sucks that there seems to be more rabateh (interaction) between iranian-americans and white people than iranian-americans and african-americans.

anyways as whoweretheqajars explained to me, since its the accepted term in academia, it has to be used when writing academic papers and that’s fine. i don’t even really have beef with people in general who want to use “afro-iranian” because i am not sure how i feel about it. i don’t mean to criticize anyone for using it. i do think in general its a good rule to just ask someone what to call them instead of making up a name for them that may or may not be on-the-mark.

———————————

*western academia has constructed this idea of the “indo-european” using linguistic similarities that are most likely a result of trade through the silk road, and a result of europe being conquered by north african and middle eastern empires over and over and over again, and not a result of the “aryan” race migrating to europe as they would like to believe. from my own research cultures and languages of iran have more in common with cultures and languages of africa and asia than with cultures and languages of europe.

**about us not “looking african”: let’s not forget that in the 19th and 20th centuries iran was occupied by white people. the only reason it wasn’t a colony was because england and russia both wanted it, and neither dared to claim it for fear of the other declaring war. during world war i and ii several major cities in iran were occupied by both allied and axis forces. seeing as how white people sexually assaulted womyn everywhere else and used politics and myths to cover it up, i am not surprised that there are so many light-skinned iranians with europeon features.

Bolded parts, then realized I bolded a whole lot.

I <3 you.

reblogging for thoughts.

i honestly dont know any body african american who uses the term “afro-iranian,” at all. but i can think of some folks who would, and why.

however i think there’s a little conflation here of popularity of middle eastern and arab culture(s) within some of black communities with actual acceptance throughout the whole, because, um, no.

(via deluxvivens-deactivated20130417)